Author Topic: "insulating" paint?  (Read 10023 times)

Offline BrushJockey

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"insulating" paint?
« on: April 10, 2008, 12:59:09 PM »
I have a client asking about this . Usually a ceramic additive or included in special formulation. Googling it now, but was wondering if anyone had experience/ advice about it.  ?
"It would be ludicrous to think I'm new to this, I know this, this is what I do"  ( Prince and Geo Clinton..)

Offline UUjohn

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Re: "insulating" paint?
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2008, 07:11:37 PM »
insulating paint, eh?    ::)

surrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre it is..... ://bs
"The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time" (Bertrand Russell)

Offline BrushJockey

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Re: "insulating" paint?
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2008, 07:55:31 PM »
UU- pretty much my reaction, but here's a couple of tidbits from the search:

"The technology is based on simple micro-spheres, which create an invisible vacuum effect and thus reflect the heat back into the house, creating a double glazing effect for walls."

"I always get suspicious when a product claims that it was "developed by NASA." But after closer inspection, it does appear that insulating paint additive really was developed by NASA's Ames Research Center. So the product exists and it does work. Exacty how well it works is debatable. Different manufacturers claim different results. Hy-Tech says that since "R" values can only be measured on materials one-inch thick or greater, paint cannot legitimately be compared. They say that in their own tests, comparing their additive with one-inch thick insulation, both hindered heat transfer by 35%. Insulating paint will not replace a good thick layer of R-19 fiberglass between your walls. But if you have no other choice--and if you have a fat wallet, because thermal paint and additives are expensive--you may want to try it."


Just wondered if anybody had actually worked with it.
"It would be ludicrous to think I'm new to this, I know this, this is what I do"  ( Prince and Geo Clinton..)

Offline tallpaul

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Re: "insulating" paint?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2008, 09:54:59 PM »
We have a local company advertising like crazy on a talk radio station I listen to a lot. They are a ceramic coating company and claim insulating is one of the perks of their coatings. They also offer a lifetime transferrable warranty saying you never have to paint again. Must be getting plenty of takers according to the money they must be spending to have as many spots per day that they get and for how long I've been hearing their commercials.

Offline GreenMtnPainter

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Re: "insulating" paint?
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2008, 06:17:21 AM »
I have looked into these products a lot as well...  Currently I reside in the "Skeptic" camp.  For one reason, I will quote the front page of one major maker of these products:

"XXXX 's insulating paint products are based upon our exclusive blend of insulating ceramic microspheres or "vacuum beads", that are designed specifically for mixing into paints, coatings and composites to form a tight interlocking matrix which reduces conductive heat through the painted surface. The ceramic barrier reflects up to 90% of the heat back to the source."

The two ways they claim this product "insulates" is by (1) slowing down the conduction of heat, the way most insulations work, and (2) reflecting the heat, the way a mirror would.

I'm no scientist, but I enjoy reading about science and physics and have a basic understanding of heat and energy transfer, and what I do know is that the first claim of reducing conductive heat is absolutely bogus.  No film only a few mils thick is going to have a significant effect on slowing heat convection, no matter how full of "vaccume beads" it is. Look at a thermos bottle - sure it works good at insulating, but it has over a quarter inch of vaccume usually, PLUS it is regularly insulated, and it still will let the heat out eventually.  when you get down to a few mils (the actual "vaccume bead layer" will be even tinier), the effect would be neglegable - even if there were a perfect vaccume layer - which theres NOT.

The reflectivity of the stuff is the only argument that might hold a little water, and if you do some research, you will find that this is the type of "insulation" principle the manufacturers will claim this stuff works on (that means the promo statement I quoted is an outright LIE).  I am skeptical for a few reasons:

-To my knowledge, for something to reflect heat, it has to be exposed on the surface.  for instance, if you paint a mirror, it loses ALL its reflective value. These microbeads would have to lie on the surface of the paint to reflect any heat, and since they arent clear, and they dont change the color of the paint, I'd say they arent all on the surface.

-The manufacturers explanation of the effect is thoroughly fishy - Tests has shown that painting with the ceramic additive doesnt significantly affect the surface temp of a painted  surface or its emissivity.  They claim this doesnt matter, that the wall behind the paint will be cooler.  Lets take this back to what we (think) we know about reflectivity - it takes place on the surface.  A mirror's surface temp will be much lower than a surface with lower reflectivity if left out in the sun.  Also, once the surface is hot, it becomes a matter of the surface and substrate's resistance to the flow of that heat (r-value or conductivity) that determines wether that heat will penetrate, and we know that the ceramic stuff doesnt effect that...

-Finally, even if all my science is wrong, these companies that sell this stuff are SHADY as hell.  The one that had the aforementioned quote has at LEAST 6 different websites, with different names and search engine submissions and they all link to each other - TRICKING search engines to point to them more often - tactics used by most scam sites.  ALSO, their sites are full of hype, "testimonials", and misleading quotes like the one I posted above, but NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF OR STUDIES that show these things work.  They have "Gas and Cooling Bills" from customers... HAHAHAHHAHA... nice try.  And the research they do quote is NOT independant NOR is it conclusive.


Take this all with a grain of salt.  this stuff may be a miracle product after all, but I am just a skeptic.

good luck with your research, and let us know if you find anything substantial!

Offline BrushJockey

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Re: "insulating" paint?
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2008, 07:15:07 AM »
Thanks for a very thoughtful reply. I gave a bunch of links , pro and con, to my client who decided it wasn't going to be right for her.

 
"It would be ludicrous to think I'm new to this, I know this, this is what I do"  ( Prince and Geo Clinton..)

Offline rmichael

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Re: "insulating" paint?
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2008, 10:15:02 AM »
I have noticed that some paints from major paint companies are now using ceramic technology, however, they are not hyping it as super duper "insulating" paint ...  ;)
Pro Painter 30 years ~ Down East Coastal NC

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Offline UUjohn

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Re: "insulating" paint?
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2008, 03:16:19 PM »
okay, the jury of pros has spoken... can we now cry havoc and let slip BrushJockey's marauding visigoths on em ?  ;)

Be Well
"The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time" (Bertrand Russell)

Offline BrushJockey

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Re: "insulating" paint?
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2008, 03:28:55 PM »
You heard him, boys!

"It would be ludicrous to think I'm new to this, I know this, this is what I do"  ( Prince and Geo Clinton..)

 

anything