Author Topic: Valspar over DAP Dynaflex 230  (Read 17071 times)

Offline wptski

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Valspar over DAP Dynaflex 230
« on: July 24, 2015, 12:44:33 PM »
I had the same problem last year on some fascia on my garage where I used my new airless sprayer using Valspar American Tradition latex over some DAP Sidewinder and Dynaflex 230.  In both areas the paint crinkled but I blamed myself.  It was during some very humid days with heavy morning dew and I thought that I didn't wait long enough for it to dry off.

Exterior door brick molding using the same batch of paint although this time using a new HVLP system with the paint thinned over already primed wood.  This was painted yesterday and already showing the signs.  So what's the problem, caulk, paint, method or a little of both?






Offline mymint87

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Re: Valspar over DAP Dynaflex 230
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2015, 04:35:55 PM »
I had the same problem last year on some fascia on my garage where I used my new airless sprayer using Valspar American Tradition latex over some DAP Sidewinder and Dynaflex 230.  In both areas the paint crinkled but I blamed myself.  It was during some very humid days with heavy morning dew and I thought that I didn't wait long enough for it to dry off.

Exterior door brick molding using the same batch of paint although this time using a new HVLP system with the paint thinned over already primed wood.  This was painted yesterday and already showing the signs.  So what's the problem, caulk, paint, method or a little of both?


welcome...its all about the climate or conditions....thats why manus say for instance "drying time 4 to 8 hrs"    the chaulking shrinks when it dries and it appears you didnt give it enough....it merely skinned over dry only to the touch and you proceeded with finish....now about the thinning of paint, only in extremely dry and high temp conditions would i recommend thinning paint, and if a porous surface i would only recommend wetting the surface to add moisture to the substrate and not thinning the paint you should never under any circumstance thin 100%acrylic

you should always if possible alter your climate if you can,  heating up an area and drying it out or removing the moisture in the air or cooling it down and adding moisture in the air before the application
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Offline wptski

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Re: Valspar over DAP Dynaflex 230
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2015, 06:01:47 PM »
welcome...its all about the climate or conditions....thats why manus say for instance "drying time 4 to 8 hrs"    the chaulking shrinks when it dries and it appears you didnt give it enough....it merely skinned over dry only to the touch and you proceeded with finish....now about the thinning of paint, only in extremely dry and high temp conditions would i recommend thinning paint, and if a porous surface i would only recommend wetting the surface to add moisture to the substrate and not thinning the paint you should never under any circumstance thin 100%acrylic

you should always if possible alter your climate if you can,  heating up an area and drying it out or removing the moisture in the air or cooling it down and adding moisture in the air before the application
[/quote]
It was about 18 hours of drying time and the tube states 1-2 hours before painting.  As far as the thinning goes this was text book HVLP usage of a viscosity cup something done at first by many than after a while they just eyeball it.  Most state anywhere from 10-20% regardless with latex.  Actually my viscosity times were over the guidelines for the spray gun.  The first time or last year was with an airless sprayer straight from the can.  I have search and found posts about problems like this with all different brands of caulk and paint.

This was new wood, outside and in the 80's.  Many paints are marked to use when less than 85%RH and surface temperature 5F over dew point.  Used a laser type thermometer to measure surface temperature and a high end hydrometer to measure the dew point.  There shouldn't have been any problems caused by that.

The only thing I see that you mentioned is I could have wet the brick but it's not along the whole 6' or so but just spots.

Offline mymint87

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Re: Valspar over DAP Dynaflex 230
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2015, 08:05:24 PM »

It was about 18 hours of drying time and the tube states 1-2 hours before painting. 
welcome....1 to 2 hours before painting means nothing, i see the amount of caulk that has been used....18 hours of dry time,....should have been more, the caulking joint itself looks as wide as the brick mortar joint...the caulking wasnt fully dried and shrunk.....as for the cup gun application, latex can be thinned....100% acrylics should not...ask any sales rep, its basic 101, on acrylics the using the water as a vehicle enhancement breaks down the acrylic and can alter the color and/or uniformity of finish
« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 08:09:04 PM by mymint87 »
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Offline wptski

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Re: Valspar over DAP Dynaflex 230
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2015, 09:49:07 PM »
welcome....1 to 2 hours before painting means nothing, i see the amount of caulk that has been used....18 hours of dry time,....should have been more, the caulking joint itself looks as wide as the brick mortar joint...the caulking wasnt fully dried and shrunk.....as for the cup gun application, latex can be thinned....100% acrylics should not...ask any sales rep, its basic 101, on acrylics the using the water as a vehicle enhancement breaks down the acrylic and can alter the color and/or uniformity of finish
As I recall, last year using the same paint airless, no thinning and more dry time with a similar issue.  Let's cut to the chase here, how much dry time is needed?  I'm just a DIY're but anything more than a few hours,  someone who paints for a living couldn't make it!

Back from searching about thinning acrylic latex and found nothing to back you up in fact mostly the opposite is suggested.  The instructions on the can even states that it can be thinned for spraying up to 8oz of water/gallon.  I understand any thinning degrades any product.

Offline mymint87

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Re: Valspar over DAP Dynaflex 230
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2015, 11:20:59 AM »
welcome....1 to 2 hours before painting means nothing, i see the amount of caulk that has been used....18 hours of dry time,....should have been more, the caulking joint itself looks as wide as the brick mortar joint...the caulking wasnt fully dried and shrunk.....as for the cup gun application, latex can be thinned....100% acrylics should not...ask any sales rep, its basic 101, on acrylics the using the water as a vehicle enhancement breaks down the acrylic and can alter the color and/or uniformity of finish
As I recall, last year using the same paint airless, no thinning and more dry time with a similar issue.  Let's cut to the chase here, how much dry time is needed?  I'm just a DIY're but anything more than a few hours,  someone who paints for a living couldn't make it!

Back from searching about thinning acrylic latex and found nothing to back you up in fact mostly the opposite is suggested.  The instructions on the can even states that it can be thinned for spraying up to 8oz of water/gallon.  I understand any thinning degrades any product.
hello....i think i have mentioned in more ways than one that drying time will depend on climate...i must add that if the substraight you are caulking has high moisture content then the wicking of water from the substraight to the caulk will also impede drying time.. that is why i recommend if you can, heating, drying, cooling, adding moisture to the substraight your coating to optimize performance of the products.......in addition when caulking large gaps of lets say 1/4" or more, you should use backing rod first...as that will speed drying time, reduce shrinkage, increase bonding ability and add longevity to the patch...finally, i apologize if your confused but i said 100% acrylic...100% acrylics and latex's are 2 different animals and although there are certain extenders and thinners that can be used with 100% acrylics, use should not use water....good luck and thanks you very much...i hope my advice has helped
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Offline wptski

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Re: Valspar over DAP Dynaflex 230
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2015, 02:16:41 PM »
hello....i think i have mentioned in more ways than one that drying time will depend on climate...i must add that if the substraight you are caulking has high moisture content then the wicking of water from the substraight to the caulk will also impede drying time.. that is why i recommend if you can, heating, drying, cooling, adding moisture to the substraight your coating to optimize performance of the products.......in addition when caulking large gaps of lets say 1/4" or more, you should use backing rod first...as that will speed drying time, reduce shrinkage, increase bonding ability and add longevity to the patch...finally, i apologize if your confused but i said 100% acrylic...100% acrylics and latex's are 2 different animals and although there are certain extenders and thinners that can be used with 100% acrylics, use should not use water....good luck and thanks you very much...i hope my advice has helped
Why are you mentioning 100% acrylic when I'm using 100% acrylic latex which can be thinned with water because it's a waterborne paint?

There was barely a 1/4" gap between the brick and the brick molding which was filled with 1/2" backer rod.  You mentioned a large bead but actually it wasn't.  It was applied and smoothed out with the old wet finger method which removed any excessive amount.

You haven't answered my question about drying time.  First you said 4-8 hours but when I said that it had 18 hours, you stated that more is needed.

I've read that ever since elastomeric caulking came out there have been problems with adhesion.  One person had tried waiting a week and still had problems.  One answer is trail/error or find a combo of caulk/paint that works and stick to it.

Offline chrisn

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Re: Valspar over DAP Dynaflex 230
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2015, 05:05:25 PM »
I just love this thread, keep it up ;D

Offline wptski

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Re: Valspar over DAP Dynaflex 230
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2015, 06:45:28 PM »
I just love this thread, keep it up ;D
I'm glad you're enjoying it!  :D  Maybe I should have tried the DIY section of PaintTalk?

Offline mymint87

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Re: Valspar over DAP Dynaflex 230
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2015, 02:00:18 AM »

Why are you mentioning 100% acrylic when I'm using 100% acrylic latex which can be thinned with water because it's a waterborne paint?
clarification, 100%axrylic latex i refered to as 100% acrylic.....vinyl latex i refer to as latex...you are not thinning based temps and conditions, you are thinning so you could push it through a cup gun and i dont advise it with that equipment unless the temps and conditions warrant it
There was barely a 1/4" gap between the brick and the brick molding which was filled with 1/2" backer rod.  You mentioned a large bead but actually it wasn't.  It was applied and smoothed out with the old wet finger method which removed any excessive amount.
im going off your picture and the adjacent brick mortar joint as comparison...you were never specific...all other info is FYI and should be taken as such
You haven't answered my question about drying time.  First you said 4-8 hours but when I said that it had 18 hours, you stated that more is needed.
yes i did, the picture indicates caulking wasnt fully dry, nothing more or less...... i used the 4 to 8 as a manu example...meaning printed drying times by manus which you were relying on MEANS NOTHING....its all about many factors, atmospheric conditions substraight conditions, blah blah blah...must i repeat myself?, you can read and understand english cant you?
I've read that ever since elastomeric caulking came out there have been problems with adhesion.  One person had tried waiting a week and still had problems.  One answer is trail/error or find a combo of caulk/paint that works and stick to it.
i have never experience problems with elastomeric caulk, and that comes with no reading, but decades of experience....i agree that different caulking product perform better than others in certain situations for example .elastomeric caulk used on stucco cracks finished with flat paint do not flash as much as others......find something and stick with it, ?...if you say so..but it sounds like a blow off in advice and limiting...methods in working and experience with products change frequently in the painting field .... the constant formula changes and voc regulations may keep some on their toes, keeping the fundamentals with product make up, i.e. resins, driers, pigment, etc. in mind....... make it a breeze, painting is not brain surgery.

i apologize if i tend to give out TMI, thats just how i roll.....i coulda just said,

welcome....hmmm, your pic looks like you painted the caulk too soon, just bust out that cup gun, keep adding water to the product so it will work with the equipment your using regardless of product performance by doing so and paint that caulk again...problem solved.... ;D ;D ;D



« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 02:19:56 AM by mymint87 »
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Offline chrisn

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Re: Valspar over DAP Dynaflex 230
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2015, 03:28:20 AM »
I just love this thread, keep it up ;D
I'm glad you're enjoying it!  :D  Maybe I should have tried the DIY section of PaintTalk?

I am betting you would(will) get more info there, maybe. ::)

Offline wptski

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Re: Valspar over DAP Dynaflex 230
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2015, 07:55:22 AM »
clarification, 100%axrylic latex i refered to as 100% acrylic.....vinyl latex i refer to as latex...you are not thinning based temps and conditions, you are thinning so you could push it through a cup gun and i dont advise it with that equipment unless the temps and conditions warrant it
 
im going off your picture and the adjacent brick mortar joint as comparison...you were never specific...all other info is FYI and should be taken as such
yes i did, the picture indicates caulking wasnt fully dry, nothing more or less...... i used the 4 to 8 as a manu example...meaning printed drying times by manus which you were relying on MEANS NOTHING....its all about many factors, atmospheric conditions substraight conditions, blah blah blah...must i repeat myself?, you can read and understand english cant you?

i have never experience problems with elastomeric caulk, and that comes with no reading, but decades of experience....i agree that different caulking product perform better than others in certain situations for example .elastomeric caulk used on stucco cracks finished with flat paint do not flash as much as others......find something and stick with it, ?...if you say so..but it sounds like a blow off in advice and limiting...methods in working and experience with products change frequently in the painting field .... the constant formula changes and voc regulations may keep some on their toes, keeping the fundamentals with product make up, i.e. resins, driers, pigment, etc. in mind....... make it a breeze, painting is not brain surgery.

i apologize if i tend to give out TMI, thats just how i roll.....i coulda just said,

welcome....hmmm, your pic looks like you painted the caulk too soon, just bust out that cup gun, keep adding water to the product so it will work with the equipment your using regardless of product performance by doing so and paint that caulk again...problem solved.... ;D ;D ;D
[/quote]

Craft paints are sometimes called acrylics.

You're really supposed to thin by temperature, etc. at the time of the spraying but the viscosity time listed for latex is a 10 second spread.  I haven't heard of anyone yet that fussy.  Your use of the term "cup gun" means nothing as that can be anything that uses paint from a mounted cup.  Sounds like you don't spray, dislike spraying, etc.

Ha!  Manus times?  I had to look that up as I wondered what you were talking about.  Never heard of them.  Yes, I can understand english and I'm still asking how long do you allow for drying time?  Longer, tells me nothing at all.  "Decades of experience", does this mean that you paint for a living?  If so, do you caulk on one job, leave, come back in "x" amount of time to proceed?  If you can't caulk and paint over it on the same day, you can't be making any money!

What was left of a gallon was thinned making around a quart.  Supposedly, one shouldn't thin latex past 25%.  Too thin, you may get runs, too thick and you can get orange peel.  I had neither.

I could have easily just brush the paint but I wanted to get some practice using this HVLP turbine system.  It took me much longer to mask off the job than to  spray it plus cleaning the gun.  I just want to solve the caulk/paint issue before a winter indoor project I have planned.

Offline rmichael

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Re: Valspar over DAP Dynaflex 230
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2015, 03:02:36 PM »
The paint and the caulk have different drying/curing rates, if the caulk contracts at a higher rate than the paint the paint film will crack. The same would be true visa versa.
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Offline wptski

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Re: Valspar over DAP Dynaflex 230
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2015, 07:45:20 PM »
The paint and the caulk have different drying/curing rates, if the caulk contracts at a higher rate than the paint the paint film will crack. The same would be true visa versa.
Okay, how do you match the two up?  Hmm, maybe a extender should be used when spraying latex?  Actually I have some Floetrol but never tried it yet.

Offline mymint87

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Re: Valspar over DAP Dynaflex 230
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2015, 08:15:42 PM »

 Hmm, maybe a extender should be used when spraying latex?  Actually I have some Floetrol but never tried it yet.
from my reply in post 5  "100% acrylics and latex's are 2 different animals and although there are certain extenders and thinners that can be used with 100% acrylics, use should not use water."....just saying....lol
I don't do this for a hobby and I'm damn sure I don't need the practice

 

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