Author Topic: Two coats with "back rolling"  (Read 27201 times)

Offline gillius

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Two coats with "back rolling"
« on: August 22, 2012, 12:20:51 PM »
I recently contracted a painter to do a two coat exterior paint with SW Duration paint (job still in progress). I heard today that he only did one coat and only plans to do one. So he did two coats with the brush to cut it in, but then he says he used a roller to "back roll" to put on a "double coat". This sounds a bit fishy to me, I'm hoping the pro painters on here can tell me if that's legit? I'm especially concerned since I paid a higher price for this guy than other quotes I got for two-coat.

I've only heard the term "back roll" in conjunction with spraying, but I'm almost positive he did not spray. I have cedar siding, maybe 9 to 12" on each row. Here is what he told me:

Quote
The way I put two coats on a house is to cut it in twice as brushing puts on 2-3ml of paint, which is considered a normal layer of paint.  That includes the trim and cutting in the siding. On a house like yours, I then roll the siding as it is so flat and wide, with a 9" roller cover and a 1/2" nap.  We "back roll" as we are initially doing it, and we end up putting on at least 5-6ml of paint which is a double layer of paint, so we essentially "double coat" your house with the initial rolling.  As you can see it covers excellent, whereas one coat, or 2-3ml, would not.

From my non-pro interior painting experience I agree with the brushing, it never puts on as much as a roller. But I didn't think you can "double coat" this way, and you need to wait for a dry? Is it different because it's SW Duration paint?

the PAINTSMITH

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Re: Two coats with "back rolling"
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2012, 01:30:18 PM »
Not legit. Ask him for his journeyman cert or a list of PROFESSIONAL painters who will approve his method, and if he finds some ask THEM for their journeyman cert. When times get tough, everyone is suddenly a paint contractor.

My guess is that you hired a handyman, who taught himself to paint and to cut corners.

I hope that you have his "two-coat" promise in writing. Any judge with a brain can add...Sorry for your poor choice of contractor, it happens to everyone sometime...

Offline gillius

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Re: Two coats with "back rolling"
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2012, 01:46:15 PM »
Thanks for replying so soon, since he is still on the job.

I do have a contract, it's actually a very good and explicit contract as far as contractors go. That and this guy has been painting in this town for quite a few years (ads in newspaper, signs, etc.). He gave me a list of 83 references I actually physically went to 3 of the houses and spoke one of the homeowners. That is some of the reasons why I picked this quote because even though it was higher because I've worked with some contractors where the contract is scribbles on a napkin almost. The contact says "8. Two coats of paint on all siding, shutters, and trim." which I assumed (and assume any reasonable person would think) two distinct, separate coats allowing for drying inbetween since that's the only way I've ever heard of someone painting two coats.

The look of the single coat is actually very good, I was surprised, it covered very well and right now I can't see any weak spots. I might be happy with the job at single coat but I'm not happy that I paid for two coats. So I will need to talk to this guy. I think it would be reasonable to say do the second coat, or maybe if I look at the single coat and think the coverage is good enough to ask for reduction of final bill. My guess based on watching him is $35/hour (rate as stated in contract) with 4 people on two days to do the siding work is $2240 or about 45% of the contract including materials so far. But he probably had some of those 4 people doing trim and cutting in, which he did two coats with. If a single coat lasts only a few years less maybe it is a better value.

the PAINTSMITH

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Re: Two coats with "back rolling"
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2012, 01:54:54 PM »
Two coats is two coats.

Maybe when he's done and your check is 50% short, you can explain to him how that's your method of "payment in full".

Tell the guy to honor the contract and apply the second rollerfull, or give you a discount.

Two coats is two coats, not a "method".

Offline gillius

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Re: Two coats with "back rolling"
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2012, 02:04:12 PM »
Well, the contract is very clear about 2 coats and fortunately he responded to me in writing about the one-coat (quote in first post), so I am in a good position.

If I could possibly ask for opinions one more time, do you think the amount I cited ($2200 of the original $4350 labor; $5000 incl materials) is a reasonable discount to ask for? And, if he gives me the choice of the discount or finishing the second coat, but I (with an unprofessional eye) think the house looks great with a single coat, is it worth doing the second coat?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 02:06:23 PM by gillius »

the PAINTSMITH

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Re: Two coats with "back rolling"
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2012, 06:31:44 PM »
If you believe the job fulfills specifications and satisfies your expectations, by all means pay the man. In my opinion a lack of that second coat will come back to bite you when the paintcures--It takes about thirty days. If he wants full payment ($5000 means nothing to me without footage and elevations), IN MY OPINION he needs to honor the terms stated.

I just finished a job on a lake home, a 1500 (- or +) sq. ft cedar lap-sided "rambler" (oh did it ramble) and detached double garage, ONE coat of satin exterior over flat latex stain (same color, or it would have been a 20% +), including garage door, deck rails, steps and risers, for just under $6 grand. We were persnickity in detail, cuts straight like a knife (regardless of the hack-job of the previous "painter") and included priming and painting a new white vinyl window to the anodized bronze of the rest of the house.

It stopped at one coat because the sheen was showing the ineptitude of the previous painter: Sander marks all over the siding were un-fixable without a $10,000 resand job, and a second coat would have magnified these sins.

I hope I'm helping you, without condemning a paint job I've not seen, but I have a pet peeve for paint contractors who tell you one thing and do something else, telling you they're doing what they told you they would.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 06:33:29 PM by the PAINTSMITH »

Offline gillius

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Re: Two coats with "back rolling"
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2012, 09:04:43 PM »
Sorry I didn't mean to say it met my expectation or even to "condemn" a paint job... I wondered if these "one coat" paints are really true and I could be satisfied with a lower price at one coat. But after doing some research and seeing that really 2 coats are very highly recommended even with a paint like Duration, also coming back to my house this evening and seeing some unevenness in the color (as the original white shows through the medium-dark blue paint), and your post suggesting that the traditional saying of "there is no one-coat paint job" still applies, I definitely want two coats.

So really my initial question on whether my skepticism of his "double coat" method was unfounded by some new development in professional painting was answered, so you were very helpful in that. And I didn't mean to ask if the 5k is fair, I got other quotes and spoke to friends who had paint jobs to figure that out; I know it depends on prep/house size/etc. If he did what he said with the quality he promised, his quote is fair. I meant whether my guess of how much "one coat" is worth (40% of the effort) is reasonable  if he somehow refused to do the second and I decide to pay a fair price for the one coat, but now I do want the second anyway, so it's a moot point.

Tomorrow morning I'll have to talk to this guy. He told me he would be done tomorrow but none of the windows are painted even one coat and are still dirty/dusty. I looked up the Duration specs, the recoat time is 4 hours so it will be quite the challenge to do two coats in one day. Now because of this "backrolling" trick I'm questioning if he even planned a second coat on the trim too so I better make that clear -- in the few trim painted parts I see some leftover siding color bleeding through which suggests only trim single coat there so far.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 09:06:40 PM by gillius »

Offline gillius

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Re: Two coats with "back rolling"
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2012, 12:42:06 PM »
If you care for an update, he must know what's going on because when I confronted him about the "one coat so thick it counts as two" he says "well, I see your point" and didn't really fight me on it and is doing it right. So apparently he doesn't really think it's legit either and just hoped I wouldn't notice so he catches up on his budget and schedule since he started my house late and he says he's going to lose money on me. I said providing proper quote prices was his job, not mine...

So, thanks for your help in confirming that it's not really a legit technique, which gave me the confidence to make sure he didn't try to wiggle out of doing it. Looks like it will go on fine now...

the PAINTSMITH

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Re: Two coats with "back rolling"
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2012, 06:10:14 PM »
I'm going to say that he's simply been caught at it before.

You need to get the job that you paid for, simple as that. I get a lot of calls from folks wanting me to either fix or "finish" the previous guy's work. At least your contractor has the cajones to do what's right in that situation. There are too many who don't.

Offline mymint87

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Re: Two coats with "back rolling"
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2012, 10:18:35 AM »
2 thin coats with manu recommended drying time in between is always better than 1 thick coat

if any homeowner is questioning a hired painter application technique, simply read the can of the paint that he is using, it will tell you how it can and should be applied including compatible primers to be used, then you have a leg to stand on when you discuss it




I don't do this for a hobby and I'm damn sure I don't need the practice

Offline gillius

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Re: Two coats with "back rolling"
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2012, 10:28:33 AM »
Well when I spoke to him it was clear that he wasn't incompetent, just dishonest/lazy. I could tell that he knew because he didn't really fight me on it. I got the datasheet from SW's website (http://www.sherwin-williams.com/document/PDS/en/035777577738/), so I knew the recoat time. When he came to finish up he was pretty nice about it, but I still don't trust him. Some of the doors and trim were clearly one coat where I could see areas not even touched with one coat (like, when you roll a roller quickly over, it leaves some untouched streams). He did fix it and said "well I told me guys to do two coats"... so then he is just telling me he's a bad manager too. But he did repaint the doors and the obviously bad trim parts himself personally, as well as all other touch-up I asked for without complaint. In the end I paid him and cosmetically I don't see anything but I still don't trust that he did two coats everywhere... I don't feel like I was totally scammed or feel really bad about the job, but I would never use his services again.

I heard his employees talking about him when he wasn't around and I wasn't visible they said "you know I don't blame the guy (me), he (contractor) should really explain his definition of 'two coats'".... So it's clear he does this elsewhere so I feel bad for those other customers that didn't stand up to his "really thick coat = 2 coats and I charge you 2 coats of labor"

Offline mymint87

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Re: Two coats with "back rolling"
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2012, 10:50:40 AM »
Well when I spoke to him it was clear that he wasn't incompetent, just dishonest/lazy. I could tell that he knew because he didn't really fight me on it. I got the datasheet from SW's website (http://www.sherwin-williams.com/document/PDS/en/035777577738/), so I knew the recoat time. When he came to finish up he was pretty nice about it, but I still don't trust him. Some of the doors and trim were clearly one coat where I could see areas not even touched with one coat (like, when you roll a roller quickly over, it leaves some untouched streams). He did fix it and said "well I told me guys to do two coats"... so then he is just telling me he's a bad manager too. But he did repaint the doors and the obviously bad trim parts himself personally, as well as all other touch-up I asked for without complaint. In the end I paid him and cosmetically I don't see anything but I still don't trust that he did two coats everywhere... I don't feel like I was totally scammed or feel really bad about the job, but I would never use his services again.

I heard his employees talking about him when he wasn't around and I wasn't visible they said "you know I don't blame the guy (me), he (contractor) should really explain his definition of 'two coats'".... So it's clear he does this elsewhere so I feel bad for those other customers that didn't stand up to his "really thick coat = 2 coats and I charge you 2 coats of labor"
good to see an informed customer,  sometimes when an economy slows, everyone becomes a painter on the side and because painting is heavily laden with labor costs compared to materials costs in a bid, the potential for cutting corners and its lucrative payoff makes many want to stay in the business, but as with any business, honesty is the key to longevity, it very easy to check on a state issued license for infractions and issued date and ask for a reference....but you sounded like you didnt lose your temper and was just matter of fact about it....KUDOs for you 
I don't do this for a hobby and I'm damn sure I don't need the practice

Offline jamezzz

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Re: Two coats with "back rolling"
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2014, 12:31:23 AM »
I've had a similar experience as described above.  In my case, two "tack free" coats was written up in the contract and the contractor verbally explained that as "two times around the house, not two sprays".  To make a long story short, I essentially monitored their progress on one wall, as I noticed they weren't doing the "two times around the house approach".  I wanted to see what they were actually doing. So over a 15-20 minute time span I periodically checked their progress from my office window (separate building) as they worked a factory primed wall on my garage.  I noticed when they finished and kept checking for them to start the second coat.  That never occurred and they began taking away their drop sheets.  So I called them on it.  They explained that given the weather conditions (mid 80's, low humidity) they would work about a 5' section and then go back over it with the second coat.  This was using Sherwin Williams SuperPaint on new Hardie Board and Batten.

So later I spoke someone at a S/W paint store and they said they suggest two coats because you'll usually get sagging if you try to apply the appropriate thickness required for the warranty in one shot.  But if conditions are right and the painter knows what they're doing they can get the proper thickness in shot without waiting the specified recoat time (said 2 hours on the can at 45 degrees or more).  He claimed the mil thickness is what's really important for the proper protection, durability and warranty.  I'd really like to hear some thoughts on this before I insist on a second coat being applied.  Incidentally, I see no sagging and the paint appears uniform even after the 2 day weekend.  It looks fairly good to me, but I'm concerned about longevity.  Is mil thickness the true deciding factor on durability?

« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 01:01:25 AM by jamezzz »

Offline chrisn

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Re: Two coats with "back rolling"
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2014, 03:48:26 AM »
I've had a similar experience as described above.  In my case, two "tack free" coats was written up in the contract and the contractor verbally explained that as "two times around the house, not two sprays".  To make a long story short, I essentially monitored their progress on one wall, as I noticed they weren't doing the "two times around the house approach".  I wanted to see what they were actually doing. So over a 15-20 minute time span I periodically checked their progress from my office window (separate building) as they worked a factory primed wall on my garage.  I noticed when they finished and kept checking for them to start the second coat.  That never occurred and they began taking away their drop sheets.  So I called them on it.  They explained that given the weather conditions (mid 80's, low humidity) they would work about a 5' section and then go back over it with the second coat.  This was using Sherwin Williams SuperPaint on new Hardie Board and Batten.

So later I spoke someone at a S/W paint store and they said they suggest two coats because you'll usually get sagging if you try to apply the appropriate thickness required for the warranty in one shot.  But if conditions are right and the painter knows what they're doing they can get the proper thickness in shot without waiting the specified recoat time (said 2 hours on the can at 45 degrees or more).  He claimed the mil thickness is what's really important for the proper protection, durability and warranty.  I'd really like to hear some thoughts on this before I insist on a second coat being applied.  Incidentally, I see no sagging and the paint appears uniform even after the 2 day weekend.  It looks fairly good to me, but I'm concerned about longevity. Is mil thickness the true deciding factor on durability?

why, yes it is
you are paying for 2 coats and 2 coats is what you should get

Offline A New Leaf Painting

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Re: Two coats with "back rolling"
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2014, 06:10:45 PM »
I find it truly comical when clients ask what we mean by applying two coats of paint. I never answer the questions directly without first asking a few questions of my own, purely for entertainment reason. Well the other painter said "applying one coat with the sprayer and back rolling was two coats. SERIOUSLY? Are you kidding me Mr. Painter man? Stop dragging our industry further into the gutter! Although this is a really good sign that I have just increased the chances of landing this bid by 75%! When did applying paint with a sprayer and backing rolling it into the substrate become two coats?  “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of a low price is forgotten” – Benjamin Franklin 

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