House Painter Forum

Professional Painters => Professional Painters and associated Trades Forum => Topic started by: funcolors on March 05, 2008, 09:58:09 PM

Title: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: funcolors on March 05, 2008, 09:58:09 PM
Have a client who hired her own painter, that's normal.  She got his card off the B. Board at the paint store.  Guy gave her a great price, pretty much is showing up on time and can't complain about the work too much. He painted switchplates on the wall which is just lazy, IMO. They always end up looking like crap, so I had to address that.  He didn't like it.

Here's the biggie tho, he is leaving all his stuff in the client's home each night.  This job started on Monday and will be ten work days, at least.  Painting almost the whole house.  I have always worked with painters who work with a *no-trace* kind of process.  Every night they clean up and move their sh1t out and you really can't tell that the house is being painted.  Not even a brush is left behind.  I've come to expect this.

I walked in this house tonight at 6 pm and he left his ladder set up in the two-story family room.  This is where these people hang and watch TV every night.  There is this giant cart thing that he set up in the kitchen.  It's the size of a regular kitchen island!  This thing holds ALL of his supplies/tools and has a significant foot print in this large, but not huge kitchen. This is stuff I'm used to seeing in painter's vehicles, they go out to their truck and get what they need.  He assembled this cart in her kitchen and he's leaving it there for the duration!  She said he walks out each night with a can of Mountain Dew and that's it.

She offered him an empty bay in her 3-car garage to store his supplies/tools and the use of her laundry sink.  The only thing in the garage is a bucket.  When I heard that she offered him the use of the utility sink in the laundry but instead he washed out all his crap in the bath tub, I had to take a deep breath and control myself.  With her kids, the dog and trying to live as normal as possible in the house for the next two weeks I told her I'd be happy to speak to him about cleaning up each night before he leaves.  She doesn't want me to make him mad.  ::)

Making him mad is about the last thing I give a flip about and being as appalled as I am, I thought it'd be wise to get a check about what would be a reasonable compromise. Or if there even should be a compromise.  I kinda don't think so, but what say you guys?
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: BrushJockey on March 05, 2008, 10:12:26 PM
For me it is unusual that I remove all my stuff during a job. But I always ask for an out of the way place and neatly put it there, and clean up and out of any used family space. It is also not unusual if a job needs extensive furniture moving, and it is a room that is expected to be out of commission during remodeling/painting, to occupy the space for the duration. This is never a used kitchen or even a bedroom that is being used.

I have always found my customers very easy to get along with this way, but it is all how it is done and the consideration made to the client. Sounds like he doesn't get that part.

I am a guest in someones home. I should not act like I own it.
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: Bauer on March 05, 2008, 11:08:18 PM
Ya I also leave equipment on the job. I ask where the best place would be to do so. I close or dispose of any solvents, plus dirty rags. Never leave a ladder set up...thats just asking for a lawsuit.

Cleaning stuff out in the tub! OMG  ::)

Definitely talk to this painter. Explain that the homeowner is not happy with what he is doing. And tell him how unsafe that is.

BTW tell him not to paint switch plates! If the client wants them painted (  :-X ) at least take them off and paint them so they don't bond to the wall and leave nasty outlines.
I hate painted plates and outlets....
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: ProWallGuy on March 05, 2008, 11:38:03 PM
We too set up a shop close to the work area. If its warm out, the garage is ideal. If its too cold, an out-of-the way space inside. But as Brushjockey said above, everything is tidied up at the end of the day, and I wouldn't dream of cleaning anything out in the tub.
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: rmichael on March 05, 2008, 11:42:37 PM
Offloading and loading all supplies and equipment each day can add a huge amount of time to the job. I think it is reasonable ( if given permission by the home owner) to leave some tools and supplies in the "work area", of course the area should be squared up at the end of each day. IMO most home owners expect some minor inconveniences.

However, judging from your post this painter seems arrogant and inconsiderate. Being offered a garage bay and a laundry sink would be a dream for most painters.
Read him the "RIOT ACT"...  ;)
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: funcolors on March 06, 2008, 12:11:01 AM
I wasn't very clear - sorry.  When I referenced no-trace not even a brush left behind, specifically I meant the main living areas.  I do suggest to clients on the front end to think about the painter.  They/he/she will need to use the restroom, have some place to eat, have access to a sink or hose, and some space to work in and from, don't schedule the cleaning lady until the painting is done, etc.

Lots of times the lesser-used dining room/living room combo ends up being the parking spot for supplies/tools or extra garage space, maybe a guest room. I've just always seen an out of the way place used as a staging area and small supplies returned to the vehicle.  So, absolutely, there are designated spaces for painters to leave stuff -- just not smack in the middle of the main living areas!

Trust me, the garage bay and utility sink offered in this house is more than sufficient.  He's simply choosing to leave stuff strewn or stacking it on this cart thing in the middle of the kitchen -- the cart thing bugs me, can ya tell.  I rolled it into her mud room.  It has wheels for corn sakes, why couldn't he do that?

I emailed her and told her that my suggesting some new ways to manage his supplies in client's homes may actually be beneficial to him.  He might get more call-backs if his manners improved.  ;)  I think she is now okay with my mentioning a few areas of improvement -- and I will.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: chrisn on March 06, 2008, 07:24:46 AM
However, judging from your post this painter seems arrogant and inconsiderate. Being offered a garage bay and a laundry sink would be a dream for most painters.
Read him the "RIOT ACT"... 

I agree that a sink to clean up in is a luxury, I generally take brushes,etc home to clean, cleaning in the tub? I don't think so.I also tend to leave supplies neatly stored out of the way somewhere but a ladder left out? Don't think so. Also when leaving a paste machine on the job site, it is covered and left under the table overnight, don't ask me why.
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: the PAINTSMITH on March 06, 2008, 08:55:42 AM
Well funcolors, your retribution will be in the magnanimous referrals you pass along for the guy. Word DOES get around.

I often have the pleasure of having an empty house to work in. A lot of my clientele are "summer people" who are generally in for weekends, giving me the house at my disposal. I still consolodate my gear in a shop area, though.

The liability of leaving a ladder up against a wall, inside or outside, is sheer lunacy. I don't think I need to elaborate.
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: funcolors on March 06, 2008, 09:25:42 AM
Quote
Also when leaving a paste machine on the job site, it is covered and left under the table overnight, don't ask me why.

I work with one painter who gathers everthing out of the way and covers it with clean drop cloths every night.  It just looks nice  :), plus it tends to keep curious kids and pets out of his stuff.  Outta sight, outta mind.
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: Vin on March 06, 2008, 12:03:53 PM
The guy is very inconsiderate and unethical, the Mountain Dew and washin stuff out in the tub is just redneck ;D.....
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: rmichael on March 06, 2008, 12:30:58 PM
A client of ours told me the story of a crew of painters she hired from "down in the county". While driving in to her job one day they hit a deer, they strapped it across the hood and proceeded to haul it to the job. Small children were present and were, of course, very upset to see a bloody deer flopped across the hood of a station wagon.
Now, if you think that takes inconsiderate behaviour to a new low, well, these Guys started digging...... During their lunch break they hung the deer from a tree limb in her back yard and DRESSED IT OUT... Now THAT is Redneck!!....  ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: BrushJockey on March 06, 2008, 12:53:26 PM
A buddy of mine told me about a S American crew he worked with that did that to a goat, then cooked lunch!  Just like at home!
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: ProWallGuy on March 06, 2008, 01:04:14 PM
I worked with a guy way back who used to set up little traps in the customers yard to catch squirrels and chipmunks. Word has it that he made a very tasty stew.  ;D
He didn't last long.  8)
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: the PAINTSMITH on March 06, 2008, 01:16:54 PM
I worked with a guy who would put his lunch under the windshield of his truck so it would be "warm" by lunchtime...This was in Scottsdale AZ, midsummer...One day he had some day-old crablegs...By 3:00 the house stank so bad that the homeowner kicked the whole crew out and told us to kindly leave him behind the next day...There was NO question who was causing the aroma...
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: blackwolf on March 06, 2008, 06:06:53 PM
Painters 101:  keep main area of house clear when done painting for the day!!  ::)

someone needs remedial training in apprentice basis :D
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: beetlejuice on March 06, 2008, 06:44:15 PM
unixaptable
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: Lynjowoman on March 06, 2008, 07:39:26 PM
We always keep clean up the work area at the end of the day, especially if there are small children & pets around.  :)

Lynjo
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: brushworks on March 06, 2008, 09:21:42 PM
Funcolors,

I share your frustration and offer you my hugs. It can be tough for people like you who have such high standards of professionalism.

Last week my crew installed a very expensive ProVia double entry door in a house. The total ticket was $9,750.00. A big deal to the owner!

When I arrived today to do the final inspection and take a picture for our portfolio I noticed the tile setters using the door, which was marked with a red sticker, "contractors must use garage entrance".

I asked the worker why he was using the door against the owner's request. His reason was, it was too far to walk around and a smart ass remark like, "it's a door man, it's meant to be used."

I took several pictures of the door and one that captured the two of them exiting through the new door. That put a stop to that parade!

Take some pictures of his mess and tell him to use them in his presentation portfolio.

Michael

Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: tallpaul on March 08, 2008, 05:15:15 PM
I always allow for a little time to tidy everything up into an out of the way place at the end of the day. I have a guy that works with me sometimes and he refuses to leaving ANYTHING on the job overnight. The amount of time it takes him to load and unload and go back and forth throughout the day really makes me mad. I am kind of OCD about efficiency and this stresses me out.
As for talking to this guy...I suggest not going in there with much of an attitude. LIke others have mentioned it sounds like this guy is arrogant and my be a little head strong so I would try to be delicate but with authority (if that is possible or even makes any sense). I am about the easiest guy to get along with but I know that when a decorator comes in trying to tell me how to do the job that I have been doing for 17 years I don't always feel like taking her out for dinner and a movie. I'm not saying this is what you would be doing but some painters (as well as other tradesmen) I know of will get super upset or even pack up and walk from a job when they feel the slightest amount of their precious pride being hurt. good luck.
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: rmichael on March 08, 2008, 08:09:46 PM
Very good point Paul, Painters can be temperamental when confronted by anyone they consider not to be their peer.... Make your point but it wouldn't hurt to throw in a compliment or two about the work ( if you can )....  ;)
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: brushworks on March 09, 2008, 08:16:57 PM
Are you guys implying that a good book on tradesman humility wouldn't be a best seller? ;D

Michael
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: Chip McCheckellson on March 09, 2008, 09:22:31 PM
The following will only make sense if you've seen the movie The Big Lebowski  ;)


There is this giant cart thing that he set up in the kitchen...

It's the size of a regular kitchen island!

She said he walks out each night with a can of Mountain Dew and that's it.

She offered him an empty bay in her 3-car garage to store his supplies/tools and the use of her laundry sink.  The only thing in the garage is a bucket.  When I heard that she offered him the use of the utility sink in the laundry but instead he washed out all his crap in the bath tub...


Well, im, a little, tired right now, man.  U(?

(http://jj.am/gallery/d/33461-1/LebowskiOpinion.jpg)

 ;D
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: MacPainter on March 10, 2008, 12:28:24 AM
i would never ever EVER consider leaving a ladder out unless its a rental or something and no one is living there at the time, and even then thats only inside. if it was an extension ladder on a dropcloth over hardwood, it comes down regardless. like others have said its a lawsuit waiting to happen. painting over plates infuriates me. its just a thing, i dont know. of course, you gotta do it if the last knuckle-head did it too. id want to set this guy straight and tell him the score. painting is too often regarded with too much simplicity, but i like to think of it as a craft just as much as carpentry. you wouldnt be fine if a carpenter who was supposed to put crown molding up decided to put a table saw in your kitchen either, im sure. this just comes down to the guy being unprofessional, and bad behavior should not be encouraged by letting him continue it. not only is it better for you, but in the long run you are hopefully letting him learn what he is doing wrong and how to please future customers.
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: funcolors on March 10, 2008, 03:42:27 PM
I got a look at the contract.  He's cheap.  Guys, that's it in a nutshell if ya ask me.  She is totally getting what she paid for.  Ben Moore Super Spec flat ta boot.  Gawd, I hate that stuff.  For some reason it is splattering everywhere in this house.  The finish is ugly, nothing chic or pretty about it.  It does cover well in two coats in most colors, gotta give it that.

It's going to be a long week.  I talked to him.  He doesn't get it.  If he "got it" he'd know how to develop a service and price it accordingly.  He's not a craftsman, he's not a painter, he's hired labor.  I had to grab plastic this morning and cover the flat screen TV - he wasn't going to cover the $$$ TV using that !@#$ Super Spec that splatters.  What a chucklehead.

I completed a punch list for him.  I have NEVER done this before.  Ever.  Spots of paint on the kitchen tile around his "work area" a.k.a. the goofy cart.  Didn't take the globes off the bathroom lights and they got dinged with paint that needs cleaned up, patched walls and didn't clean up the dust so it sat there all weekend to get kicked up and distributed all over the whole room.  I could go on.

I removed the switchplates last week.  He did go back and touch up behind the plates, course I had to put the plates back on the wall 'cuz he left them sitting there.   ::)
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: BrushJockey on March 10, 2008, 05:27:50 PM
Sorry to here about this Funcolors, and you're in the middle looking out for your client.  Good on you, and the client is getting an education on what makes a quality painter....the hard way.

Good luck with all of that!
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: rmichael on March 10, 2008, 06:09:50 PM
Are you guys implying that a good book on tradesman humility wouldn't be a best seller? ;D

Michael

"Tradesman" & "humility" ..... Now, That's a contradiction of terms.....   8)  ;D
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: DecorativeWalls on March 10, 2008, 06:38:39 PM
that's a bummer;  sure wish she would have known a little more before she signed on the "dotted line".  As a homeowner,  they should have stepped up to the plate and said "enough is enough" .
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: SixInARow on March 23, 2008, 09:14:18 PM
Wow, that guy needs to sell his tools and find another job.  Did I miss something, I mean how come you haven't been asked to take over and finish the job?

I too leave things on a jobsite if it is going to be more than one day, unless I am using very few of my tools.  Most often I have multiple buckets and cut pots, drop clothes, etc.  It can take a half hour to 45 minutes from the time you pull up on the jobsite until you're actually working, and cleanup can take an hour easily sometimes.  That's a lot of time that isn't going towards progression of the job.  I always check with the homeowner on the best place to store things overnight if possible, as well as the best place to clean up tools.  If they don't have a utility sink in the laundry room or garage they usually tell me to use the kitchen sink.  During the warmer weather I use the hose outside.
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: funcolors on March 24, 2008, 03:24:08 PM
Quote
Did I miss something, I mean how come you haven't been asked to take over and finish the job?

I'm not a painter.  Never have been, never will be.  I specifiy color for inter/exter, residential, commercial and some industrial and am a color consultant to other design professionals.  Don't do much with graphic design/packaging any more.

Approx. 60% of my clients DIY and the remaining 40 hire usually with my help and referrals, but not always.

This job finished.  Thank heaveans.  Needless to say, I won't be referring this guy any time soon and I kinda hope he loses my number.  ::)
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: SixInARow on March 25, 2008, 12:15:25 AM
Yeah I missed something, lol.  At least you can save other homeowners from his wrath from now on!
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: Faron79 on March 25, 2008, 09:23:20 AM
Fun-C,
(I can't resist this...)
Would this situation qualify under your "One Hot Mess" heading :D :-*?!??!?! (hee-hee)

That painter wouldn't be in MY house for long!

Faron
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: the PAINTSMITH on March 25, 2008, 09:37:11 AM
I'm considering merging this thread with the "What Makes a Pro Painter" thread...
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: funcolors on March 25, 2008, 01:19:45 PM
Ha! :D

faron, it wasn't quite a hot mess.  He was actually pleasant and nice enough.  He just had some goofy habits and he didn't understand the *service* part -- the fact that he held the fate of a person's worldly goods and belongings and ability to function as close to normal as possible in their home thru a paint job literally in his professional hands.

The trick is to make it look easy and unimposing, right?  It's a big deal to paint.  It's messy and creates chaos.  Big ladders, ladders of all sizes, lots paint cans and misc.stuff, and often lots of people in a few thousand sq. ft. or maybe less room than that.  Part of the reason people hire a professional painter is for mess and chaos management.

Painting neatly and neatly painted is beyond a lot of people's ability.  That's one of the biggest benefits of paying a pro. They have the process of painting down to a detailed science so mess and imposition is as minimal as possible.

I did mention I think Ben Moore's Super Spec is the ugliest finish I've ever seen, didn't I?  Talk about a hot mess...  ;)
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: Faron79 on March 25, 2008, 02:59:58 PM
Auuuuggghhh ;)!!!
I can't get that phrase out of my head now....
"One Hot Mess"...
OK...OK...I'm drifting OT now...

See-Ya 'round Fun-C :-*!
Faron
Yes...the Super-Spec isn't exactly a "top-notch" look!
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: BrushJockey on March 25, 2008, 05:04:12 PM
now wait a minute, you talkin SS flat or egg? Before BM matte came along I really liked SS egg...
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: funcolors on March 25, 2008, 10:56:18 PM
Flat.  It's sooooo flat, no visual dimension or richness to it whatsoever.
Title: Re: Am I being unreasonable? Long...
Post by: brushworks on March 26, 2008, 09:16:22 PM
Dead flat looks...well, dead..

Michael